[Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting

Wed Apr 11 14:26:45 PDT 2018

I would agree that the core concepts of programming are fairly universal,
even if syntax can be very different.
I would agree that the rapid development of AI seemingly without moral /
ethical boundaries and/or guidance is perhaps the biggest threat to
humanity since humanity.

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
wrote:

> Oh and bringing up COBOL:
>
>
>
> Every programming language is pretty much the same
>
>
>
> The big idea behind COBOL class was that you aligned things underneath
> each other to make statement segments
>
>
>
> Well, big circle, apparently I learned last night python is pretty much
> the same exact thing
>
>
>
> Every programming language pretty much consists of, as I read elsewhere,
> some combination of “assignments”, “comparisons”, and “jumps”.  There isn’t
> too much more to it.  You can label the syntax/semantics however you want,
> but programming really hasn’t changed.
>
>
>
> It’s interesting with AI, they’re using more PSYCHOLOGY (positive
> psychology), I’ve been learning more about AI from my membership in the
> American Psychological Association in the last few months than I have ever
> learned from computer science magazines.  Sure, computer scientists
> invented artificial neural networks some 20-40 years ago, and the hardware
> caught up, but now psychology is what is used to PROGRAM them.
>
>
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:40 PM
>
> *To: *LILUG Mailing List <lilug at lists.lilug.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting
>
>
>
> As a final “talking to myself” point, I am a lifetime member of the
> Association “for” computing machinery, I just wish people would think
> things THROUGH before PUSHING TOO FAR TOO FAST.. Some things need to be
> secured, for example, at the DESKTOP level before you think of putting same
> technology into a roaming vehicle which can murder (and there HAVE been
> deaths by self driving cars already, multiple).  In that case, WHO do you
> hold responsible?
>
>
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:30 PM
> *To: *LILUG Mailing List <lilug at lists.lilug.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting
>
>
>
> Oh, and most of the last 17 years I’ve been sitting on my butt and doing
> my own thing for $2,000/month + free health insurance  I’m just watching
> with disbelief as the world happens.
>
>
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *iN8sWoRld.net <nate at in8sworld.net>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:25 PM
> *To: *LILUG Mailing List <lilug at lists.lilug.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting
>
>
>
> I'm sorry to hear that you have found it difficult to make money with free
> software.  Its often difficult for folks in industries disrupted by new
> technologies to figure out a way to make money in a new economy.  This has
> happened over and over again thoughout history and will not stop any time
> soon.  You won't find a job as a milkman or an elevator operator no matter
> how much you beat the pavement looking for one.  You mentioned automation,
> and I think we've all heard the predictions that driverless cars may soon
> displace all delivery drivers for example.  We could deal with this
> information a couple ways, but ignoring the warnings, getting a CDL and
> selling our homes to buy a big rig might not be the best choice.
>
> The bright side of change of course is that for all the jobs lost in
> maintaining legacy COBOL applications there have been a bucket-load of
> people making mobile and web applications.  In fact, it seems to me that
> there are many *more* people writing code today than there used to be
> precisely because its more accessible (both in the availability of training
> and opportunity to market on the internet).  Programming is still one of
> the highest paying jobs you can have - and no messy physical work
> required!
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:52 PM, Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
> wrote:
>
> Oh, and don’t be fooled by AI and automated decision making with modern
> tech as tech advances faster and faster.  There are ways to make people get
> used to the idea of algorithms deciding – who to pair you up with on a
> dating site, who to put you in class with, whether or not to approve
> credit, etc. – And then there are those who know how to either BIAS those
> algorithms with misleading training data, and/or intentionally slip in
> malicious (for their benefit) code when people aren’t looking.
>
>
>
> And yes, people WILL do that ethically just to get people not to trust
> these things.
>
>
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 11, 2018 3:49 PM
>
>
> *To: *LILUG Mailing List <lilug at lists.lilug.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting
>
>
>
> In my not so humble opinion, Linux has made it virtually impossible to
> make money as a programmer.  That’s largely why the last 20 years or so
> I’ve been “virtually homeless”.  You see it all over California too, former
> tech people living on the streets in cardboard boxes, all because people
> don’t want to pay for software and services, and would rather foreigners
> support and develop this software --- in some cases software we use for our
> own ‘national security’, how dumb is that.
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 11, 2018 2:53 PM
> *To: *LILUG Mailing List <lilug at lists.lilug.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting
>
>
>
> Recall them, then : - )
>
>
>
> I remember a professor back in college in 1996 said “There is too much
> stuff done wrong in exactly the same way as real unix for Linux not to have
> been copied almost directly from UNIX code”
>
>
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *iN8sWoRld.net <nate at in8sworld.net>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 11, 2018 9:56 AM
> *To: *LILUG Mailing List <lilug at lists.lilug.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting
>
>
>
> I take issue with your characterization of Linux and BSD as "pirated"
> software as this has been litigated (to death) by patent trolls who create
> NOTHING and waste tons of other people's time and money trying to make
> money off of other people's work.  Neither Linux nor BSD can properly be
> called "pirated" software in any sense, its just incorrect and quite like
> the FUD I recognize as typical of Microsoft and SCO.  They are "unix-like"
> operating systems, they do not use unix code.  In fact, if anyone pirated
> things, its Microsoft who were using BSD TCP/IP stack right up until
> sometime before Win7?  They did comply and put the disclaimer in there that
> the code was from BSD however.
>
> Another point I'd like to make is that you can place any disclaimer you
> wish on anything you sell, but what matters is whether that claim will hold
> up in court.  This typically depends on which state you are in and whether
> you show "gross negligence" in your application.  Speaking as someone who
> has been involved in the making of actual physical products for 25 years
> (some with Linux), I can confirm that lawyers will use any tactic possible
> to pin a failure on the weakest link in the chain (provided that link also
> has enough money to be a worthwhile target - there is a calculus there), so
> you certainly would be wise to evaluate the tools you use carefully, and
> document that things are tested against specifications with third party
> agencies.  If Linux should not be used in actual real world application
> you've got some serious problems. You would need to recall billions of
> phones, almost every super computer, not to mention high energy physics
> colliders, all Amazon and Google server farms, and soon you won't be able
> to buy a darn thing (iOT) without some kind of Linux in it.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 8:56 AM, Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
> wrote:
>
> Sorry to keep replying to myself, but here’s why software guys (at least
> not with an engineering background) shouldn’t be involved in designing
> ‘security’ into systems..
>
>
>
> Back in 2001, I was working on a U.S. Army project with people from
> intelligence agencies from various other governments (such as the Mossat,
> and MI-Whatever that british agency) .. And I was only there less than two
> months..  And this was JUST BEFORE 9/11 by a matter of 3-4 months.. And I
> managed to break through all this incredible software security (completely
> by accident, not knowing it was there), when one of those foreign agents
> casually asked me to reinstall windows for them..   So, despite layers and
> layers of security controls in the system, this military security as it was
> some 17 years ago (I’m disclosing this now, hoping they learned their
> lesson), all it took to bypass this wonderful security the military had was
> to reinstall windows from the commercial install disk over-the-counter.
>
>
>
> I know Linus Torvalds’ was pissed when Spectre and Meltdown were
> ‘revealed’ to the public, but sometimes backdoors are put into systems ON
> PURPOSE, whether or not that is smart.  Sometimes it’s a government
> insisting on a back-way-in, and other times it’s an individual who thinks
> they’re smart, and sometimes it’s actually just an accident, and going back
> in time to figure out which is virtually impossible (even if it were
> possible, the factors involved in decision making are often difficult to
> determine).
>
>
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 11, 2018 7:59 AM
>
>
> *To: *LILUG Mailing List <lilug at lists.lilug.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting
>
>
>
> ON a side note, MacOS is built on BSD which is also an ‘educational’
> (pirated) operating system, BSD=University of California at Berkeley I
> believe.. As such, pirating MacOS should be considered free to do, since
> they didn’t have a problem with that, and I wouldn’t dare use a Mac in
> industry running BSD.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 11, 2018 7:41 AM
> *To: *LILUG Mailing List <lilug at lists.lilug.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting
>
>
>
> Again, pardon typos, my eyeglasses were lost, it’ll probably be a week or
> two until replacements arrive
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 11, 2018 7:39 AM
> *To: *LILUG Mailing List <lilug at lists.lilug.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting
>
>
>
> And this, again, is why  Linux should never ever be used in industy
> legally.  It’s educational, it’s open source clone of real UNIX which
> professional like myself have contributed to.. However, Linux ultimately is
> pirated software, which is valid for educational use, scientific
> experimentation and learning, but never in practice should it ever be used.
>
>
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 11, 2018 7:05 AM
> *To: *LILUG Mailing List <lilug at lists.lilug.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting
>
>
>
> I saw a five line or so comment at the top of some source code disclaiming
> all warranties, expressed or implied, including fitness for a particular
> purpose, etc. etc.
>
>
>
> From my understanding this is what they consider a “blanket disclaimer”
>
>
>
> What separates scientists (people who research) from Engineers (people who
> practice) is that the practitioners HAVE to have responsibility for their
> products, like I said there are a lot of products today that are
> potentially deadly that rely on software, and if we’re talking murder or
> manslaughter, we CAN NOT just say “well, I said I wasn’t responsible,
> therefore I am not”.
>
>
>
> By the way, if any ‘software engineers’ in new York aren’t aware, you
> cannot legally call yourself an engineer in new York state without approval
> from NCEES (I believe it is called), this is a certification process for
> licensing, the term engineer is protected in new york state.  NCEES
> incidentally has a mailing address in the same town that I want to college.
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *iN8sWoRld.net <nate at in8sworld.net>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 11, 2018 7:01 AM
> *To: *LILUG Mailing List <lilug at lists.lilug.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lilug] On-topic to last night's meeting
>
>
>
> As this interested me I took a quick look on github and all I can find is
> that Atom is released under the MIT license.
>
> Is this the "waiver" to which you refer?  The MIT license doesn't imply
> any warranty at all and doesn't require users sign any waiver that I'm
> aware.
>
> https://github.com/atom/atom/blob/master/LICENSE.md
>
> Nate
>
>
>
> Not sent from Windows
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 6:01 AM, Robert Wilkens <rob.wilkens at ieee.org>
> wrote:
>
> I’ve noticed that there was a ‘blanket disclaimer’ on the ATOM source code
> shown.  I’ve heard these blanket disclaimers might start becoming invalid
> or disallowed as computers are more and more involved in tasks that involve
> life and death (such as self driving cars).  Clearly someone has to be
> responsible.   Does anyone here have opinions on the elimination of the
> legality of discarding all liabilities with a simple statement making that
> claim?
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
>
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> iN8sWoRLd
> https://www.in8sworld.net
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